Shaping Europe’s social and employment future

Mary McCaughey: 0:05 

Hello and welcome to this edition of Eurofound Talks. And Eurofound Talks is a little bit different this time because we're going to be talking about the general shaping of Europe's social and employment future. There's no doubt that the European Union is navigating a period of profound transformation. We have a cost-of-living crisis. We have transitions, both green and digital, demographic shifts and, of course, the huge geopolitical uncertainties that seem to engulf us on a daily basis. 

Mary McCaughey: 0:38 

At the heart of the European response to these challenges still must remain democracy: closing the democratic deficit and standing strong at these times of crisis. And of course, at the heart of the European Union is the European Parliament. And maybe we could argue at the heart of the European Parliament is the Employment and Social Affairs Committee, which is one of the committees of the European Parliament with whom Eurofound works very closely on an ongoing basis. 

Mary McCaughey: 1:10 

Today I am delighted, as a result, to be joined by Li Andersson, who's the Chair of the Employment and Social Affairs Committee and, of course, a Member of the European Parliament. She's going to give us an insight into what the Parliament Committee does and indeed how the Parliament itself can address some of the issues that we refer to. So, you're very welcome, Li. 

Li Andersson: 1:28 

Thank you very much. I'm very happy to be here. 

Mary McCaughey: 1:30 

Excellent. Well, let's just start straight away, and we want to look at the remit of the Employment and Social Affairs Committee. Perhaps it's maybe not as well known as some of the other committees, but perhaps you could make that clearer to the general public. Can you just explain to us: what is the committee and why does it matter? 

Li Andersson: 1:51 

So, our committee works on topics and issues that are related to everything that has to do with employment and the labour market—so working conditions and workers—and also everything that is related to social policy. So, we have a kind of general competence of social policy, meaning that we deal with everything from issues that are connected to demographic changes, for example, care systems, but also disability rights. 

Li Andersson: 2:16 

One misconception that I encounter quite often as the Chair is that the EU cannot do anything in the field of employment and social policies. But actually, when you look also at the treaties, the EU has competence in the field of working conditions and equal treatment, as you said. So, the EU does do legislation when it comes to labour market issues. In the field of social policy, the EU also has an extremely important role politically in terms of setting targets, coordinating the work of the Member States, but also in terms of financing. The EU also uses, for example, the European Social Fund to finance many important projects that are linked to social policy. So, also in this regard, the EU has an important role to play. 

Mary McCaughey: 3:06 

So, not an insignificant role. But particularly perhaps at this time, I mean, one of the reasons that you're here—why would the Parliament Committee come and visit us? 

Li Andersson: 3:13 

We are here because Eurofound is one of five agencies that are under the remit of the Employment and Social Affairs Committee. It is very important to us, actually, as Eurofound produces data on what is going on in working life in Europe—very important data and information on how working conditions develop and also on many new phenomena that are affecting labour markets and workers. 

Li Andersson: 3:45 

And this is another point I usually make when I describe the work of the committee: we don't need this committee to deal with everything that is connected to the labour market or working life. We have national parliaments that do a lot of that work. But the issues that we work on are usually issues that are unifying for all of Europe or connected to how the internal market works. For example, issues related to occupational health and safety. 

Mary McCaughey: 4:12 

Mhm. 

Li Andersson: 4:12 

We have many new issues that we need to address and problems in that field, such as the effect of extreme temperatures and weather phenomena on workers. We also work a lot when it comes to technology and the digital transformations, which are, of course, also transforming working life in every Member State. Last mandate, for example, the Platform Work Directive was discussed. Now we are discussing topics that have to do with the right to disconnect, the use of AI, and algorithmic management in working life. 

Li Andersson: 4:42 

And also, we do a lot of work on issues that are connected to labour mobility and how contracts and workers' rights are respected and can be enforced in situations where workers move from one EU country to another, some of them maybe also coming from outside the EU and then being posted within the European Union. So, if the EU was not to address issues that have to do with workers' rights and only focused on how you remove barriers on the internal market, we would see a lot more problems and a lot worse treatment of working people in Europe at the moment. 

Mary McCaughey: 5:28 

You've outlined, I suppose, some of those top priorities that the committee has. It has a broad remit, like we do ourselves in Eurofound. You referenced occupational safety and health—EU-OSHA in Bilbao is specifically focused on that—but our remit is probably as broad as the Employment and Social Affairs Committee. You talk about social inclusion, health and safety at work, free movement of workers; some of them are our top priorities. 

Mary McCaughey: 6:00 

But I suppose in today's world where we're looking at greater competitiveness, where there's a greater drive towards more productivity, defence, and security at the top of the agenda—how do you think that your committee and indeed the European Parliament can work towards ensuring that those issues stay at the top of the agenda? 

Li Andersson: 6:20 

I would say this is one of the main challenges for us this mandate. I don't want to say that this is completely unproblematic. We do have to work together, the whole committee, to make sure that the social agenda is not forgotten or that it doesn't lose political weight. I have tried to emphasise that when we think about these uncertain geopolitical times that we live in, with many forms of security challenges, we need to understand that any comprehensive security policy is also based on social cohesion and trust. 

Li Andersson: 6:58 

We have so many examples of this already from Europe and from other places in the world: societies that have a high level of equality and a high level of trust—which is usually connected also to having well-functioning social protection, welfare systems, and equal treatment—are also better equipped to be able to respond to, for example, misinformation and disinformation or other types of crisis or situations such as the COVID pandemic, or new situations that we might not be able to foresee yet at this point. So, I would say that having an ambitious social agenda is really directly linked to security and resilience. 

Mary McCaughey: 7:40 

Exactly. 

Li Andersson: 7:41 

And this is really an argument that should not be forgotten. In addition to this, we see it in, for example, almost every Eurobarometer that has been published—also the latest one—that when Europeans are asked what they think should be the main priorities for the European Parliament, the cost-of-living crisis is number one. I think that also is a very clear indication, signal, and message that the cost-of-living crisis has not disappeared. There is still an ongoing social crisis in Europe that is affecting a lot of workers and a lot of people in a precarious situation. 

Li Andersson: 8:23 

And if the EU does not address that, I think we will see even more polarisation. I think we will see even more instability also inside of Europe, not just us responding to instability and threats coming from outside. We also need to have an ambitious social agenda so that we can make sure that we have everybody on board and we will not see new types of security threats within our countries and within our Union. 

Mary McCaughey: 8:53 

I mean, that's an interesting point because that whole social cohesion is built on trust, and you mentioned that earlier. Our most recent results from our Living and Working in Europe e-survey show that there has been a significant decline in trust at the national level and in national governments. Trust in the EU seems to have sort of stabilised; at least it's still relatively positive. What do you think is at play there, and indeed what do you think we can do to shore that up to make sure that it doesn't diminish? 

Li Andersson: 9:25 

I think this issue of trust is tremendously important and really interesting because this is also a global development. I was at the UN World Summit for Social Development at the end of last year, and they also raised this issue of trust because they're seeing a declining trend globally. So, almost everywhere, the level of trust people feel in their own governments, but also in each other, is going down. 

Li Andersson: 9:50 

The fact that this is a global development really points to some kind of quite deep crisis also for our democratic systems, which is surely fueled by the fact that we're living in this information society now with all these social media platforms that also feed into this distrust. The logic of the algorithm is built on affect—on creating these very strong emotional responses in people. 

Li Andersson: 10:23 

And this is a huge challenge for democracy. But I do think myself that one starting point for rebuilding trust must also be that people can find trust in politics being able to produce positive change and deliver for them. In a lot of countries, this faith in the ability of our democratic systems to really produce results that are tangible for you and that provide better prospects for the future—many people have lost this. So, here the social agenda is really key: to have an ambitious social agenda and economic policies that support it. 

Li Andersson: 11:10 

But it's interesting that you said the level of trust in EU institutions has kind of stabilised, because we do know that there are differences between the Member States even inside the EU in this regard. But I do think that in these very uncertain geopolitical times, many really see the value of the European Union in a bit of a different light than previously—that we need each other and we need to work together and stay strong and true to our values in this time. 

Mary McCaughey: 11:45 

Well, I mean, maybe we can just circle back, because you talk there about a visible manifestation of how that work can play out in people's lives. Certainly, one area where there's a clear example of EU action making a difference is the Minimum Wage Directive. We see from our latest data that there are increases in minimum wages across nearly all Member States. What's your perspective as a Member of the European Parliament seeing that roll out? How do you think the impact of the directive has been so far, and do you think there are more steps in the offing to try and ensure that that also is consolidated? 

Li Andersson: 12:26 

I think it has been one of the most important pieces of legislation in the field of employment and social policies for decades. Firstly, because that is one piece of legislation where we're already seeing tangible, concrete results in minimum wages increasing, especially in southern and eastern Member States. I think the next very important steps have to do with the target set for collective bargaining coverage and really engaging national governments in putting in place policies that help them to reach that target. 

Li Andersson: 13:05 

Understanding also that it's not something that will happen very quickly or overnight, but the trend needs to be changed towards increasing collective bargaining coverage. And therefore, it's going to be very interesting to see what kind of national action plans the governments now produce and whether the directive also will be influential in strengthening these structures that are essential not only for us to be able to secure an adequate minimum wage, but adequate wages all in all. 

Mary McCaughey: 13:42 

Mhm. 

Li Andersson: 13:44 

So, turning also the perspective to living wages, turning the perspective more to democracy at work, occupational health and safety, and productivity. We have a lot of data also showing that having well-functioning structures for collective bargaining in the labour market is also good for productivity, good from an economic point of view, and also, of course, good for workers' participation. So, I think these are the next steps, and it will be very interesting to see if the directive has an effect also in this regard. 

Mary McCaughey: 14:16 

And I suppose when I hear you speak, I think to myself how important it is that you as policymakers have evidence to base your decisions on as you try to drive these initiatives forward. We're working on all of the areas that you're talking about here. We've just had the Working Conditions Survey; the results will come out in the overview report very shortly. But we also do a lot of work on collective bargaining, social dialogue, industrial relations, etc. Can you give me an example of where perhaps Eurofound's work has been relevant for you, where you've been able to draw on our research to help you move things forward? 

Li Andersson: 14:49 

Well, I think there are several examples. I mean, we just talked about the Minimum Wage Directive, for example. Now, with the whole running up to the Quality Jobs Act—which hopefully will be the most important piece of legislation from this mandate for workers and ordinary people—I think using, for example, the Working Conditions Surveys and the data that we get there will also point us in the direction of what we should be focusing on when we talk about a concept such as quality jobs. 

Li Andersson: 15:14 

Another concrete example I want to mention also has to do with algorithmic management and the use of AI in working life. I know that now the Commission is looking into having this as a part of the Quality Jobs Act, they also need data. So, they need data on the effects of algorithmic management and AI in working life to be able to say why they want to include rules on this into the Quality Jobs Act. So, they need to have information on how much this is used and what the effects are on workers. 

Mary McCaughey: 15:53 

Okay. Okay, well they're very good examples. I also just want to kind of wrap up today with a bigger picture on values. When you were at our Foundation Forum last November—thank you very much for your keynote speech at that—you highlighted that Europe's strength comes from its commitment to the rule of law, democracy, and equality. These values could be seen to be under threat somewhat at this present time. We perhaps see them still as a priority ourselves, but do you think there are things that we should do, that the Parliament should do—steps that should be taken—to ensure that they continue to be embedded in our daily existence? 

Li Andersson: 16:40 

Absolutely. I mean, I think the EU could be even stronger, really, in putting their values also at the core of the whole kind of program and agenda and the political plan for this mandate. Because as you said, these values are being challenged—I would argue more strongly than ever before. We're seeing these pushes from outside on EU legislators to change our laws; trade is being weaponised to put pressure on us to change laws we already have in place and kind of step back when it comes to these values. 

Li Andersson: 17:28 

I personally think that would be the wrong answer, the wrong strategy from the European Union. I think in a time where these values are being challenged, we need to be stronger than ever and put them at the core of the policies that are being made. This also means a stronger social dimension, an even stronger social agenda, and also the courage to put these at the core of the foreign policy that we are doing—to really show the world that we're not backing down. We have the courage to stand for these values and we believe that this is what the future should be built on. 

Li Andersson: 18:04 

And there's also—I want to say in the end—a clear labour market link to this because we're seeing more and more of these very big companies from abroad who also have activities in Europe, who are saying that they are not engaging in collective bargaining as a matter of principle. So, I think we really should link workers' fundamental rights and put them as a part of how we describe the European project and how we describe these European values of the rule of law, democracy, and equality. We should stay strong also in this regard, saying that we are here to work and defend our European model and how we differentiate ourselves from those other global trading blocs. 

Mary McCaughey: 18:52 

Indeed. I hope that Eurofound continues to be able to deliver you the evidence base that you require to have the courage to stand up for these values as we move into these difficult and trying times. The very best of luck to you, Li Andersson, as Chair of the Employment and Social Affairs Committee and also to the European Parliament as you face up to this period ahead. Thank you for joining us today. 

Li Andersson: 19:24 

Thank you very much, and thank you for all the work you're doing.